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Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) kaimakcalanum (Jurecek, 1929) - Cerambycidae
http://www.entomologiitaliani.net/public/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=17324		 Pagina 1 di 2
Autore:  zdeno [ 09/02/2011, 14:03 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) kaimakcalanum (Jurecek, 1929) - Cerambycidae
I guess this will be for you Gianfranco ! :bln:

Just got them from friend of mine.

So what is the status of ljubetense vs kaimakcalanum ?

Allegati:
Dorc.Maced009.JPG.jpg
Autore:  Maurizio Bollino [ 09/02/2011, 15:10 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Pedestredorcadion from Macedonia
zdeno ha scritto:
So what is the status of ljubetense vs kaimakcalanum ?


You already know the answer, right? ;) ;) ;)
Autore:  Plagionotus [ 09/02/2011, 15:26 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Pedestredorcadion from Macedonia
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: . You have read the topic.
Autore:  zdeno [ 09/02/2011, 15:29 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Pedestredorcadion from Macedonia
I have no idea what you talking about, Maurizio :roll: :idea: :?: :( Riccardo, what topic ? :o :shock: Have I missed something ?
Autore:  Plagionotus [ 09/02/2011, 15:31 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Pedestredorcadion from Macedonia
See this ;) :D
Autore:  zdeno [ 09/02/2011, 15:44 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Pedestredorcadion from Macedonia
eehhh I forgot, that here was a discussion about that. Well, any news then ? Just checking Dorcadionini di Grecia IV and both are listed there as a valid species....I m being be really donkey in this :evil:
Autore:  Isotomus [ 09/02/2011, 16:05 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Pedestredorcadion from Macedonia
No Zdeno no news; in my opinion kaimackalanum is only a form of ljubetense and the group should be revised in a serious way. Unfortunately, I have never found this "species", but (I have many) and I collected a big series of ljubetense and, more or less, all forms are found together. I also think that most subspecies (and also many species) described in Dorcadion s.l. (especially in Central Asia, Russia and Spain) were created just for joke (or much worse).

I have discussed the variability in P. drusum / libanoticum in this topic; you can judge by yourself All specimens were found together in a single small valley in Lebanon.
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=13367&p=75807&hilit=libanoticum#p75807
Autore:  Isotomus [ 09/02/2011, 19:25 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Pedestredorcadion from Macedonia
And I see just now the collecting locality of your specimens. Evidently Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) ljubetense ljubetense Pic, 1909
Autore:  conan [ 09/02/2011, 23:06 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Pedestredorcadion from Macedonia
wow
Autore:  Dave [ 09/02/2011, 23:38 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Pedestredorcadion from Macedonia
Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) kaimakcalanum Jureček, 1929 - Greece, Mts. Kaimakcalan 4.6.2008
Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) ljubetense ssp. ljubetense Pic, 1909 - Macedonia, Popova Šapka 9.7.2010

I do not know the difference. :cry:

Allegati:
Dorcadion kaimakcalanum
Dorcadion kaimakcalanum.JPG
Dorcadion ljubetense
Dorcadion ljubetense.JPG
Autore:  zdeno [ 10/02/2011, 1:01 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Pedestredorcadion from Macedonia
mistake :(
Autore:  zdeno [ 10/02/2011, 1:03 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Pedestredorcadion from Macedonia
Isotomus ha scritto:
No Zdeno no news; in my opinion kaimackalanum is only a form of ljubetense and the group should be revised in a serious way SO WHAT YOU WAITING FOR, GIANFRANCO ? ;) :D :arrow: LETS DO REVISION OF THEM THEN. Unfortunately, I have never found this "species", COME WITH ME THIS YEAR THERE. I M GONNA SHOW YOU HOW TO FIND THEM :D but (I have many) and I collected a big series of ljubetense and, more or less, all forms are found together. I also think that most subspecies (and also many species) described in Dorcadion s.l. (especially in Central Asia, Russia and Spain) were created just for joke (or much worse).NO POINT TO TALK ABOUT ASIAN SPECIES. WE KNOW WHO`S DOING THE MESS THERE, DONT WE ? ;)

By the way. Why Andrea and Carlo listing them as a species ? I` m sure they know what`s going on in ljubetense group, dont they ? Anyway, are these gentlemens here on the forum :idea:

I have discussed the variability in P. drusum / libanoticum in this topic; you can judge by yourself All specimens were found together in a single small valley in Lebanon.
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=13367&p=75807&hilit=libanoticum#p75807

I KNOW WHAT YOU TALKING ABOUT GIANNFRANCO.......IS ANY WAY OUT OF THIS MESS ? DNA TEST ? EXAMINATIONS OF EDEAGOS ? ANYWAY, DID YOU TRY EXAMINE COPULATION ORGANS FROM SPECIES FROM LJUBETENSE GROUP ? OR THEM TWO GUYS, I MEAN CARLO AND ANDREA ? Without that arent this discussions just useless ? Or have you done it ? If yes, what are the results ?
Autore:  Maurizio Bollino [ 10/02/2011, 1:06 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Pedestredorcadion from Macedonia
zdeno ha scritto:
By the way. Why Andrea and Carlo listing them as a species ? I` m sure they know what`s going on in ljubetense group, dont they ? Anyway, are these gentlemens here on the forum :idea:

Definitively not yet :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
Autore:  zdeno [ 10/02/2011, 1:16 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Pedestredorcadion from Macedonia
what a shame :cry:
Autore:  Isotomus [ 10/02/2011, 10:12 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Pedestredorcadion from Macedonia
zdeno ha scritto:
I KNOW WHAT YOU TALKING ABOUT GIANNFRANCO.......IS ANY WAY OUT OF THIS MESS ? DNA TEST ? EXAMINATIONS OF EDEAGOS ? ANYWAY, DID YOU TRY EXAMINE COPULATION ORGANS FROM SPECIES FROM LJUBETENSE GROUP ? OR THEM TWO GUYS, I MEAN CARLO AND ANDREA ? Without that arent this discussions just useless ? Or have you done it ? If yes, what are the results ?


Dear Zdeno, rarely, very rarely (or never) the aedeagus (median ad lateral lobes) are really helpful in the taxonomy of Dorcadionini. Too similar or too variable. Yes, Pesarini and Sabbadini tried to find differences, but If you see the drawings published in these papers, you will easily note how feeble are these differences. On the other hand, for sure you have the papers of Danilevsky revising the "subspecific structures" of various species or even species groups: D. glicyrrhizae (2001), D. semenovi (2001), Eodorcadion intermedium group (2004), D. abakumovi group (2004), D. leave group (2009), or even revising the genus Eodorcadion (220 pages, 2007). Well, you will never find a description or a drawing of one aedeagus (but also never an identification key and it is singular to write a "corpose" (large) revision of a genus without a key !).
I am sure that when a genetic study on the specific or "subspecific structure" will be tried, the number of subspecies or even species will dramatically decrease.
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