Forum Entomologi Italiani

Good morning!

Today I want to show 2 Dorcadion spp., which are found in Georgia.
Both belong to the same species, but in terms of subspecies I'm not sure.

1. Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) sulcipenne ssp. sulcipenne KUSTER, 1847
Georgia, Nakalakevi ad Akhalkalaki
01 V 2014, leg., det. A. Woźniak

2. Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) sulcipenne ssp.?
Georgia, Tsalka ad Manglisi
05 V 2014, leg. A. Woźniak

Both specimens are D.sulcipenne sulcipenne Kuster, 1847.

Jacek, I'm still not sure.

According to me:
1 and 3: This is Dorcadion sulcipenne sulcipenne,
2 and 4: This is Dorcadion sulcipenne caucasicum.

Here are the photos of females (no 3 and 4).

3. Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) sulcipenne ssp. sulcipenne KUSTER, 1847
Georgia, Nakalakevi ad Akhalkalaki
01 V 2014, leg., det. A. Woźniak

4. Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) sulcipenne ssp. caucasicum KUSTER, 1847 (?)
Georgia, Tsalka ad Manglisi
05 V 2014, leg. A. Woźniak

Most of these "efing" subspecies were created by "efing" Danilevski and his "efing" slave, called Lazarev. Validity is worth of a brown thing, which goes out of our rear hole each morning....

Sulcipenne...I would not go further because there is no valid " further ".

Howgh !

Akhalaki https://maps.google.com/maps?q=41.42522 ... 1&t=h&z=10
Tsalka https://maps.google.com/maps?q=41.58566 ... 1&t=h&z=10
This localities are situated ca 50 km apart, without any border. Two subspecies here are unbeliveable.
They are this localities?
Do You have a more glabrous female from Akhalaki?

Moreover I have a large series D.sulcipenne (Didi Toneti ad Manglisi leg Szewczyk M., 2014) and all seems as D.sulcipenne sulcipenne.
Such glabrous female as yours names cauciasicum but if it is not certain is better to write "D.sulcipenne".

Zdenko, as usual a very interesting writing about genere Dorcadion.
This time it was not the sin of Danilevsky, because ssp. caucasicum Kuster described already in 1847.
Do you think that this is not a good subspecies?

BTW:
Zdenko, refer to this topic:
http://www.entomologiitaliani.net/public/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=57547

Yes, these are the village.
Why two subspecies are impossible? Two subspecies may occur together in the same area!
I also have a black female from the area Tsalka.
I have the longer series. You have to see them once good and well marked.

Yes, that's right. I wrote about it - viewtopic.php?p=315634#p315634

I asked:

You answer unfortunately:

if You have only one-two glabrous females I can't belive in two divided, sympatric populations of D.sulcipenne (in the same area).

Marcin Szewczyk told me, that in 2014 he met only one (1-!) glabrous female between a one hundred specimens with bare, shine elytra.
For me this is nominative subspecies - D.sulcipenne sulcipenne.
The rest leave for you.....

I suspect that the identification of Dorcadion is nearly always a matter of faith! Everybody can say what he wants, and everybody can be right and mistaken in the same time.

_________________
Maurizio Bollino

Jacek, very thank for your reply.
Now I have to think about.

In the vicinity of Nakalakevi 100% of the females were like in the picture No. 3.
A Tsalka around only about 10% of females were black.

I have not yet preparated any specimens of this species.
When I do, I might be smarter?

Very wisely written!
Dorcadion it's a very difficult group. There are a lot of differences and a lot of doubts. There is still much to be done, and much will change here.

Glabrous females are more or less common in many species/groups, f.e. gallipolitanum, pedestre, regulare, etruscum and so on...it is nothing to do with subspecies level. If all would have its own name, we have 10 x more species...what for ?

No, 2 ssp should NOT be in 1 place. It happens sometime, but then there should be a question about validity of that ssp. Lucanus c. turcicus and c. cervus from Meteora comes to my mind, where many are against this splitting. Ssp is clearly determined. One of the requirements is geographic isolation...

Adam, all this post is about nothing...photo determination. Did you look at any characters, any work, aedeagus ? Compared it ? Females, if no male, are almost impossible to be determined if any colour form in very similar groups...

Kuster ...1847a D. sulcipenne sulcipenne = Kuster 1847c D. caucasicum ( Lazarev 2009 )...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The real nature of D. caucasicum as a glabrous form of D. sulcipenne is quite evident from
the original descriptions because of well developed lateral thoracic spines (impossible in D.
cinerarium) and longitudinal elytral furrows - the most important character of D. sulcipenne,

Before Danilevsky et al. (2005) conditionally accepted the name D. cinerarium
caucasicum Küster, 1847c for several Caucasian populations of different species of “groupcinerarium”
recently described as D. sisianense Lazarev, 2009, D. megriense Lazarev, 2009
and D. shushense Lazarev, 2010.
D. s. sulcipenne and D. s. caucasicum are separated by Kura River near Tbilisi. D. s.
sulcipenne is distributed along left (north-east) bank of Kura from about Gldani to Rustavi,
while D. s. caucasicum is distributed along right (south-west) bank of the Kura from about
Digomi to Tskhneti. So, numerous pubescent specimens (D. s. sulcipenne) with the label
“Tbilisi” preserved in different museums were collected north-eastwards from the city.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cinerarium caucasicum or caucasicum or sulcipenne caucasicum ?

There is a big need of revision, mostly species from Pic, Breuning and similar...but not by these two guys

I will leave it up to you....here I m useless

ciao ciao

Zdeno -


I hate the genus Dorcadion!
What kind of Cerambycidae that walk the earth as Carabus?

And one more thing:
According to the latest scientific trends is the possible presence of two subspecies of the same area, because they can be divided other than geographic barriers. This may occur, for example, the reproductive barrier or barrier associated with the time of occurrence.

No no, small mistake. It here are described two taxons:
D. caucasicum Kuster, 1847b:98
D. sulcipenne Kuster, 1847a:87

New rank:
D. caucasicum Kuster, 1847b = D. sulcipenne caucasicum Kuster, 1847b, stat.n. (Lazarev 2009)...
(not sulcipenne sulcipenne)



CPC 2014:
sulcipenne argonauta Suvorov, 1913: 74 A: AR GG TR
kurda Suvorov, 1913: 76
pallescens Suvorov, 1913: 75
sulcipenne caucasicum Küster, 1847c: 98 A: AR GG
impressicorne Tournier, 1872: 282
sulcipenne goktshanum Suvorov, 1915: 117 A: AR
armenum Suvorov, 1915: 117
sulcipenne sulcipenne Küster, 1847a: 87 A: GG

I agree that can't determine on the basis photos and pieces of incomplete informations. Dorcadions? Impossible.

there is nothing about sulcipenne caucasicum...
Studies and Reports
Taxonomical Series 7 (1-2): 255-292, 2011 Lazarev...