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Dorcadion sp. - Cerambycidae http://www.entomologiitaliani.net/public/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=7452	Pagina 1 di 1

Autore:	zdeno [ 16/05/2010, 15:48 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Dorcadion sp. - Cerambycidae
Hi all. Everytime when I try to ID Dorcadions from Balkan getting in trouble. According to Danilevski` s photos it` s not easy. So, here you go. I hope someone is able to determine these: Cheers in advance ! Zdeno NW Greece, Vevi vill, E from Florina, ca 700m alt. Other Dorcadion of Greece of this discussion: - Vevi vill, E from Florina, ca 700m - NE Greece, near Orestiada - NE Greece, near Orestiada - Alexandropolis - near Alexandropolis

Autore:	Maurizio Bollino [ 16/05/2010, 18:38 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Dorcadion
zdeno ha scritto: Hi all. Everytime when I try to ID Dorcadions from Balkan getting in trouble. According to Danilevski` s photos it` s not easy. So, here you go. I hope someone is able to determine these: Cheers in advance ! Zdeno Hi Zdeno, you are absolutely right. Confident identification of Dorcadions is not easy at all, especially basing it on a photo. Even if I am not a specialist, I will try to give my opinion, mostly based on last papers by Pesarini & Sabbadini and on my own reference collection. Specimens from Vevi village in first and fifth images look like kozanii daccordi (even if also etruscum is quite similar, but usually it has a median white band on pronotum). Second image is, most probably, either regulare, or pedestre. You would be able to separate both species only by examination of parameres. I'd tentatively say third specimen is ..... sapkaianum, but I'm afraid I'm wrong. I am quite sure forth is gallipolitanum Sixth is a female of .... I don't know!!! Bye

Autore:	Plagionotus [ 17/05/2010, 7:25 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Dorcadion
Maria vergine!!!! Me casca el naso, anzi, ea engua!! Il sesto in effetti è strano davvero, ma tu non preoccuparti, dalli tutti a me che alla determinazione me la brigo io!!!! Traduzione: The sixth is in fact strange a lot, but don't worry, give me all and about the determination I do it!!!!

Autore:	Xylosteus [ 17/05/2010, 9:17 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Dorcadion
Dear Zdeno, it isn't easy to give a name to a Dorcadion only with pictures. It is necessary to check the specimens. Anyway I can try. Picture 1 and 5 from Florina: Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) bravardi Pic, 1916 Picture 2 and 4 from NE Greece: Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) gallipolitanum Thomson, 1867 Picture 3 from NE Greece: Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) sapkaianum Kratschmer, 1987 Picture 6 from Alexandroupolis: Neodorcadion exornatum (Frivaldsky, 1835) All the best, Pierpaolo

Autore:	Maurizio Bollino [ 17/05/2010, 11:51 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Dorcadion
Xylosteus ha scritto: Dear Zdeno, it isn't easy to give a name to a Dorcadion only with pictures. It is necessary to check the specimens. Anyway I can try. Picture 1 and 5 from Florina: Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) bravardi Pic, 1916 Picture 2 and 4 from NE Greece: Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) gallipolitanum Thomson, 1867 Picture 3 from NE Greece: Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) sapkaianum Kratschmer, 1987 Picture 6 from Alexandroupolis: Neodorcadion exornatum (Frivaldsky, 1835) All the best, Pierpaolo Non vorrei contraddire uno specialista come Pierpaolo, ma dissento dall'identificazione dell'esemplare 2 come gallipolitanum. Per me l'identificazione più probabile è pedestre, o regulare (dipende dalla morfologia dei parameri). Affiancando le due immagini, si nota che l'esemplare 2 ha profilo più allungato e apice elitrale più acuto, con bande laterali che non si congiungono tra loro, nè con la banda suturale. Nell'esemplare 4, che ritengo un vero gallipolitanum, invece, la sagoma è più tozza, l'apice elitrale molto più arrotondato, manca la banda umerale nel quarto apicale delle elitre e la bande laterali si congiungono ampiamente con la suturale. Infine gli omeri sono molto differenti nei due esemplari. Riguardo gli esemplari 1 e 5, invece, basandomi sulla sistematica più recente (Pesarini & Sabbadini, 2007), leggo che bravardi è considerato sottospecie di etruscum con corologia più orientale rispetto a etruscum etruscum. La determinazione di Pierpaolo mi fa pensare che mi sia perso qualche passaggio successivo.

Autore:	zdeno [ 17/05/2010, 13:26 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Dorcadion
Cheers guys ! Well, I know who is Pierpaolo, I know you Maurizio. I do respect knowledge of both of you! All of us know, what mess is in nomenclature of Dorcadions, especially with those with lines. So, I would say 1 and 5 Pedestredorcadion bravardi ( either if it s valid name or not ), second picture I would say something like regulare, breuningi???, deff. not gallipolitanum, third sakpaianum, 4th gallipolitanum and the last one should be exornatum or virleti ? I` ve got some specimens from Peloponnese determined as a virleti. Looks very similar, but I don` t really know if the distribution is so far up to the north. If not then it could be only exornatum. This female isn` t perfect, so it will be even harder to ID. So what about Pedestredorcadion breuningi on second photo ?

Autore:	Maurizio Bollino [ 17/05/2010, 13:47 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Dorcadion
zdeno ha scritto: Cheers guys ! Well, I know who is Pierpaolo, I know you Maurizio. I do respect knowledge of both of you! All of us know, what mess is in nomenclature of Dorcadions, especially with those with lines. So, I would say 1 and 5 Pedestredorcadion bravardi ( either if it s valid name or not ), second picture I would say something like regulare, breuningi???, deff. not gallipolitanum, third sakpaianum, 4th gallipolitanum and the last one should be exornatum or virleti ? I` ve got some specimens from Peloponnese determined as a virleti. Looks very similar, but I don` t really know if the distribution is so far up to the north. If not then it could be only exornatum. This female isn` t perfect, so it will be even harder to ID. So what about Pedestredorcadion breuningi on second photo ? Hi Zdeno, in accordance with most recent literature (Pesarini & Sabbadini, 2004) Neodorcadion virleti is restricted to Peloponnesus, Ionian Islands, Epyrus and Etholia-Akarnaia, while N. exornatum ranges from Xanthi eastward. Why are you thinking 2nd specimen would be breuningi? I have either pedestre and regulare from the very same area, and both species are nearly identical to your specimen. I separated them only thanks to Andrea Sabbadini, to whom I submitted photos of their genitalia. Bye

Autore:	zdeno [ 17/05/2010, 14:11 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Dorcadion
Fair enough about that Neodorcadion. Thanks for explanation ! Now about that second one. Right, definitively not a pedestre - there is that small strip at the end of each elytra. I` ve got a couple of specimens determined as a regulare. But they look a bit different. Again that small white stripe. All my regulare specimens have got that white stripe, but it is in 1 line and these what I caught now have the stripe more or less in shape of V or two together connected lines, what shows it should be Pedestredorcadion breuningi. If you look on your photo here on the forum, you should see that. I don` t like to say this ( dont like ID something depends to colour), but there are some differences in colour as well. All of my specimens have first part of antenna in bright red colour, the rest is dark black and regulare have the antennae more or less red/black.... Zdeno

Autore:	Xylosteus [ 17/05/2010, 14:24 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Dorcadion
Ciao Maurizio, Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) bravardi Pic, 1916 nell'ultimo catalogo di Loble & Smetana è considerato specie distinta. La parte del Catalogo relativa ai Dorcadion è stata curata da Danilevsky dove ha riportato il suo punto di vista. Non sempre condivisibile. Ad ogni mod a breve uscirà l'ultimo lavoro di Pesarini & Sabbadini sui Dorcadion di Grecia dove molte situazioni errate saranno rettificate. Al momento però questa è la giusta nomenclatura (Per l'esattezza sarebbero da chiamare Cribridorcadion e non Pedestredorcadion ma questo non ce la faccio..... Le foto 2 e 4 per me sono gallipolitnaum, la colorazione della banda chiara e delle zampe non vuole dire nulla. Ho raccolto delle grandi serie di gallipolitanum in Turchia europea e queste forme stavano tranquillamente frammiste. Riguardando meglio il nr. 3 direi D. (Pedestredorcadion) gallipolitnaum atritarse Pic, 1931 (anche qui la sistematica è presa dal Catalogo ma non la condivido) che spesso presenta quel tipo di livrea. Il sapkaianum ha una diversa punteggiatura elitrale ed un profilo più "tozzo"

Autore:	hpl [ 13/02/2011, 16:32 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Dorcadion spp. dai Balcani
ho diviso tutti i dorcadion di questo argomento (ce n'erano 6), inserendo i link nella prima discussione. Sarebbero da rivedere le determinazioni per essere sicuri di non commettere errori.

Autore:	Dave [ 13/02/2011, 18:19 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Dorcadion spp. dai Balcani
Hi Zdeno, first picture is Pedestredorcadion bravardi Pic, 1916 :hi:

Autore:	Plagionotus [ 13/02/2011, 21:58 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Dorcadion spp. dai Balcani
Why are you so sure?

Autore:

Dave [ 14/02/2011, 17:47 ]

Oggetto del messaggio:

Re: Dorcadion sp. - Cerambycidae

According to the photos, I think that it is this species. I caught them in southern Macedonia, Galičica Mts 2008. I is then determined Stanislav Kadlec (CZ) .
Dorcadion etruscum ssp. etruscum (Rossi, 1790) has reddish legs and antennae, and these are all black. Therefore Dorcadion (Cribridorcadion) bravardi Pic, 1916, who wants Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) etruscum ssp. bravardi Pic, 1916.

Allegati:

Autore:	Isotomus [ 14/02/2011, 19:31 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Dorcadion sp. - Cerambycidae
Dave ha scritto: According to the photos, I think that it is this species. I caught them in southern Macedonia, Galičica Mts 2008. I is then determined Stanislav Kadlec (CZ) . Dorcadion etruscum ssp. etruscum (Rossi, 1790) has reddish legs and antennae, and these are all black. Therefore Dorcadion (Cribridorcadion) bravardi Pic, 1916, who wants Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) etruscum ssp. bravardi Pic, 1916. Hi Dave, but it is bravardi or albosuturale ? (or it is the same thing ?) and what is the difference Not always D. etruscum etruscum has reddish legs an antennae.

Autore:	zdeno [ 14/02/2011, 20:21 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Dorcadion sp. - Cerambycidae
Isotomus ha scritto: Dave ha scritto: According to the photos, I think that it is this species. I caught them in southern Macedonia, Galičica Mts 2008. I is then determined Stanislav Kadlec (CZ) . Dorcadion etruscum ssp. etruscum (Rossi, 1790) has reddish legs and antennae, and these are all black. Therefore Dorcadion (Cribridorcadion) bravardi Pic, 1916, who wants Dorcadion (Pedestredorcadion) etruscum ssp. bravardi Pic, 1916. Hi Dave, but it is bravardi or albosuturale ? (or it is the same thing ?) and what is the difference Not always D. etruscum etruscum has reddish legs an antennae. I dont think the status of albosuturale is clear. Pic has been first, Breuning after 40 years, but Andrea & Carlo marked it with ? , so there will be something hidden behind that...Or do you know more ? Anyway, if it is the synonym or different specie, then you " italian specialists " have to correct it , ` coz nobody else seems to get over this group.... Btw. Bravardi as well as etruscum have both red colours, just bravardi has more black forms....

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