E' possibile arrivare a discriminare l'Anthaxia mendizabali dalla A. chevrieri in base alla foto di questo edeago?
Sfarfallata da rami di ginestra.
edeago
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| Autore: | Anillus [ 31/12/2010, 19:10 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Anthaxia (Anthaxia) spinolae Gory & Laporte, 1839 cf. - Buprestidae |
E' possibile arrivare a discriminare l'Anthaxia mendizabali dalla A. chevrieri in base alla foto di questo edeago? Sfarfallata da rami di ginestra.
edeago |
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| Autore: | Acmaeodera [ 31/12/2010, 19:26 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Anthaxia (Anthaxia) mendizabali? |
Anthaxia (Anthaxia) chevrieri Gory & Laporte de Castelnau,1839 |
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| Autore: | Anillus [ 31/12/2010, 19:42 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Anthaxia (Anthaxia) mendizabali? |
 Grazie Ilja 
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| Autore: | Julodis [ 31/12/2010, 19:51 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Anthaxia (Anthaxia) mendizabali? |
Acmaeodera ha scritto: Anthaxia (Anthaxia) chevrieri Gory & Laporte de Castelnau,1839 Sorry Ilja, but I am not so sure. The habitus is not so different in these two species, and I can't identify them using that photo, but the aedeagus seems to be more similar to that of Anthaxia mendizabali. I can't take a picture of both genitalia of my specimens now, so I send a copy of those in the cd-rom on Italian Buprestidae by Curletti: e quello di questo esemplare per comparazione: |
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| Autore: | Acmaeodera [ 31/12/2010, 21:07 ] | |||
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Anthaxia (Anthaxia) mendizabali? | |||
Thank to quite clearly visible teethes on penis shape and typical convex outer ends of parameters, think it is A.chevrieri. Now Im comparing genitals of both species with last work by S.Bílý: A revision of the Anthaxia (Anthaxia) funerula species-group,2006 Differences on paramers and serrate spice of penis are the lead differencial markers. I must say Maurizio, that on Your example pics with aedagi not at all to see serration of own penis shape... Unlike photos of the author Andrea Petriolli, where everything is perfectly visible. Italian species of "funerula-group": A.(A.) mendizabali A.(A.) impunctata A.(A.) chevrieri A.(A.) spinolae spinolae Pics from S.Bílý´s revision:
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| Autore: | Acmaeodera [ 31/12/2010, 22:12 ] | ||
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Anthaxia (Anthaxia) mendizabali? | ||
| I must say, that my collection of "funerula-group" was part of studied material in Bílý´s revision - I havent now any specimen unrevided in my collection... BUT ...Think, best method is comparing only prepared stylus of penis alone. Not whole tegmen or aedagus... Compared stylus of penis must be prepared from equally large specimen always.
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| Autore: | Julodis [ 01/01/2011, 0:19 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Anthaxia (Anthaxia) mendizabali? |
Acmaeodera ha scritto: :? I must say, that my collection of "funerula-group" was part of studied material in Bílý´s revision - I havent now any specimen unrevided in my collection... BUT ...Think, best method is comparing only prepared stylus of penis alone. Not whole tegmen or aedagus... Compared stylus of penis must be prepared from equally large specimen always. If you check the revision by Bily you can see that many of the A. mendizabali specimens and some of the A. chevrieri specimens (and some of the other species) examined by Svata belong to my collection. So, also many of specimens I have were studied and identified by Bily. But the problem is that the drawing you copied here of the aedeagus of A.mendizabali is only the extreme form, but others are more similar to that of chevrieri. I didn't say that surely specimen in this post is A.mendizabali, but only I am not so sure of the identification. When I have enough time I'll compare the photo of the aedeagus of this specimen with some in my collection, and I probably will be able to say something more. If you check the tip of the penis, you can see it seems to be intermediate between these two species. |
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| Autore: | Maurizio Bollino [ 01/01/2011, 2:14 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Anthaxia (Anthaxia) mendizabali? |
I have not any experience about Anthaxia, but retouching the image by Anillus and comparing it with drawings by Bílý, I think it is more spindle-shaped than subparallel; furthermore, tip of median lobe (see the arrows) is more mendizabali-like. But, I repeat, it's the opinion of a lepidopterist ....... |
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| Autore: | Acmaeodera [ 01/01/2011, 8:56 ] | |||
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Anthaxia (Anthaxia) mendizabali? | |||
Its very hard to compare real aedagus with drawning, and much more harder is compare only two unprepared tegmens without isolated stylus of penis. Also offten two aedagi by same species can look different... Frequently bigness and proportion of male genital can seemingly suppress own differencial characters.... Best arbiter for this cases is my microscope - below him every specimen bewray his mystery...  By the way, aedagus of A.spinolae looks very similarly.. 
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| Autore: | Anillus [ 01/01/2011, 10:04 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Anthaxia (Anthaxia) mendizabali? |
Was not my intention to create all this confusion  But the question is interesting ......  . If Maurizio (or other) wants to see the specimen is available.Thank you all for the answers
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| Autore: | Acmaeodera [ 01/01/2011, 10:32 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Anthaxia (Anthaxia) mendizabali? |
If its possible Andrea, deliver this specimen to Maurizio occasionally, - as You see, its not good supposed to sure determination only by photo... |
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| Autore: | Julodis [ 01/01/2011, 12:34 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Anthaxia (Anthaxia) mendizabali? |
I was thinking to Anthaxia spinolae, too. Unluckily, if I remember well, I have just one specimen in my collection, found by myself in Spain and identified by Bily. This species is known also for Italy, and also for Tuscany. I think that it could be interesting to examine it. Meanwhile, I'll speak with Daniele Baiocchi asking for his opinion. I'll let you know something later, probably in the afternoon. |
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| Autore: | Julodis [ 01/01/2011, 12:51 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Anthaxia (Anthaxia) mendizabali? |
Ho appena parlato per telefono con Daniele Baiocchi, che aveva già notato la discussione. La sua opinione è che non sia possibile una identificazione certa senza poter osservare direttamente l'esemplare e separare il pene dai parameri, e che comunque, così ad occhio, sembrerebbe più simile a A. spinolae. Resta comunque il fatto che alcuni esemplari italiani sono difficilmente inquadrabili in una o l'altra delle specie individuate nella revisione di Bily, e non è detto che si possa arrivare ad una determinazione certa neppure esaminandola. Qualcosa di simile mi è capitato pure con le Anthaxia semicuprea e suzannae. Gli esemplari del Centro Europa sembrano ben differenziati, ma tra gli individui italiani ve ne sono alcuni con caratteri intermedi o rimescolati delle due specie, che a me personalmente creano molti problemi di attribuzione ad uno dei due taxa. |
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| Autore: | Julodis [ 02/01/2011, 11:40 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Anthaxia (Anthaxia) mendizabali? |
Ho risistemato anche questa discussione in modo che compaia la foto dell'habitus come miniatura.
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| Autore: | Anillus [ 02/01/2011, 22:38 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Anthaxia (Anthaxia) mendizabali? |
Grazie Maurizio
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