Forum Entomologi Italiani

Hi,

Collected this Onthophagus (a "minor male" I think... I'm sure that is a male... genitalia is extracted) in Crete, Ida Montains (35.267074/24.899441) in 10.march.2010. size of the specimen (only one found) is 8-9 mm.

Thanks for helping,
cosmln

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Cosmin-Ovidiu Manci
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cosmln's place - my blog
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Dragonflies of Romania

This is difficult.
In my humble opinion: Onthophagus (Palaeonthophagus) sp., cf. O. suturellus Brullé, 1832.

Ciao
Piero

E' lui, Tenebrio! Dovrebbe trattarsi proprio di
Onthophagus (Palaeonthophagus) suturellus Brullé, 1832.
Anyway major males are not so different from the one in the photo.

Grazie Creedence. Aspettavo con un po' di timore il tuo intervento .

Ciao
Piero

But suturellus Brullé, 1832 will have head and pronotum with a metallic shine, and the pronotum covered with almost yellow/golden pubescence, even that the anterior part of pronotum is covered with longer hairs. also the pigidium is covered with dense pubescence.

this specimens from here has not metallic shine pronotum (just black), the pronotum without any pubescence, just some black setae on the edge. also the pigidium has only some rare short hairs.

also this one is much much bigger then any suturellus (and I have couple of tens of them).

see two specimens of suturellus Brullé, 1832 (male & female) here.

Grazie,
cosmln

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Cosmin-Ovidiu Manci
**********************
cosmln's place - my blog
just insects
Dragonflies of Romania

O. suturellus is an Onthophagus species with a high degree of intraspecific variability. Pronotum can show green or violet metallic shine, as you have said, Cosmln, or to be black, almost dully. Pronotal lateral pubescence of the specimen of your first photo seems not to be black, in my video at least. Not easy at all to determine after a photo, but bearing in mind the locality where the Scarab is been collected, it should be Onthophagus (Palaeonthophagus) suturellus Brullé, 1832.

studied and studied... and my conclusion (after founded also another male... not minor this time) is that this will be O.marginalis Gebler, 1817.
On the bigger male the "S" form of the horn is clearly visible and also the rest is pointing to that. Will post an image of this male later (dorsal and lateral, so that the horn and epipleures are visible)

Any oppinions?

Grazie,
cosmln

p.s. for an admin... can this be splited according to the two species? grazie

_________________
Cosmin-Ovidiu Manci
**********************
cosmln's place - my blog
just insects
Dragonflies of Romania

Here is another specimen (dorsal and lateral view) found in the same place/same date... have to check maybe will find some more .
So... Onthophagus marginalis Gebler, 1817 ???

Grazie,
cosmln

_________________
Cosmin-Ovidiu Manci
**********************
cosmln's place - my blog
just insects
Dragonflies of Romania

Sì, la specie delle ultime due fotografie, con la pubescenza nera, è un Onthophagus appartenente al gruppo marginalis. Cosml, per favore, potresti fotografare di lato anche la prima specie di cui hai postato la foto? Mi era sembrato di vedere pubescenza chiara/giallastra, ai lati del pronoto, ma se invece è scura/nera, hai pienamente ragione ed anche quell'Onthophagus appartiente al gruppo marginalis.

Hi,

here is the first specimen in lateral view.



and for comparison also an Onthophagus (Palaeonthophagus) suturellus Brullé, 1832 in lateral view (a female).



Hope this will make light in all this
cosmln

_________________
Cosmin-Ovidiu Manci
**********************
cosmln's place - my blog
just insects
Dragonflies of Romania

Avevi completamente ragione. La pubescenza è nera, l'animale è un Onthophagus appartenente al gruppo marginalis. Una revisione del gruppo sarebbe auspicabile per stabilire quale è la specie che vive sui Balcani, in Grecia, in Turchia e nel Levante (forse Onthophagus (Palaeonthophagus) tesquorum Semenov & S. I. Medvedev, 1927, ma con mille punti interrogativi).

both males have the genitalia extracted, but I don't have with what to compare... if you want I can send you one of them, just let me know. I have done a quick check and have not found any specimens in collection (but I still have a lot of them too prepare so... who knows).

from what I see O.tesquorum will be more to the east... at least in Baraud is listed for Russia (european part), Crimea (Ukraina) and Romania (?)... I have to find that paper of Ieniștea.

why will not be O.marginalis? I think the description from Baraud match this specimens.

@admin: can you please split this in two? now here are two species... grazie.

cosmln

_________________
Cosmin-Ovidiu Manci
**********************
cosmln's place - my blog
just insects
Dragonflies of Romania

Ciao Cosmin
Non ho scisso la discussione, pur trattando di due specie diverse, per due motivi.
Primo: risultava troppo complicato farlo.
Secondo: credo sia interessante il raffronto fra due specie così simili, anche per ricordare a tutti noi i limiti delle determinazioni "virtuali" per le quali la percentuale d'errore, in casi come questo, aumenta esponenzialmente

P.S. - Ho però, evidentemente, modificato il titolo

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Marcello Romano

Grazie Marcello,

cosmln

_________________
Cosmin-Ovidiu Manci
**********************
cosmln's place - my blog
just insects
Dragonflies of Romania