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| Carabus (Procerus) bulgharmaadensis E. Bodemeyer, 1915... ssp.??? - Carabidae http://www.entomologiitaliani.net/public/forum/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=143&t=17057 |
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| Autore: | Acmaeodera [ 02/02/2011, 19:01 ] | ||||
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Carabus (Procerus) bulgharmaadensis E. Bodemeyer, 1915... ssp.??? - Carabidae | ||||
 TURKEY - SE, Icel Prov., 12 km NW of ERDEMLI, Ciris env., 27.4.2003 I.Trojan lgt. ( - after 3 days intensive storms and rain, collected during soft rain with start of sunshine )
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| Autore: | gomphus [ 02/02/2011, 19:10 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Carabus (Procerus) sp. Turkey SE |
hi ilja Carabus (Procerus) bulgharmaadensis s.l. (cat. lobl&smetana treats transversalis as ssp. of scabrosus, i don't agree) can you give a photo of head + pronotum from above, not obliquely from rear as this? p.s.   !!!
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| Autore: | Acmaeodera [ 02/02/2011, 19:15 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Carabus (Procerus) sp. Turkey SE |
As You can see, its very big problem with correct submission - its not transversalis - according to Cavazzuti - ssp. transversalis is now under : C.(P.) bulgharmaadensis Bodemeyer E.,1915b: 571 ssp toulgoetianus Deuve, 2002b: 281 = transversalis Csiki, 1927: 37 - and !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - its species with crambed bell-shaped pronotum !!!! This species looks as some C.(P.) syriacus ssp... |
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| Autore: | gomphus [ 02/02/2011, 19:25 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Carabus (Procerus) sp. Turkey SE |
i had noticed that when you were sending your message in fact, transversalis is an invalid name, because of homonymy however, the true bulgharmaadensis is not completely identical with the form formerly called transversalis, the latter having a distinctly more transverse pronotum (hence its name) therefore, i'd like to see the real shape of pronotum in your animals; i suppose it's the same of the adana area p.s. surely you've got an entire box of these , have you not  ?p.p.s. about your remark, some authors in the past considered "transversalis" as ssp. of syriacus, maybe a correct point of view  ...
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| Autore: | Acmaeodera [ 02/02/2011, 19:30 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Carabus (Procerus) sp. Turkey SE |
Ivegotn´t home.... And, whats about elytral (coptolabroid) sculpture ? 
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| Autore: | gomphus [ 02/02/2011, 19:35 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Carabus (Procerus) sp. Turkey SE |
Acmaeodera ha scritto: ... And, whats about elytral (coptolabroid) sculpture ? tomorrow i'll check the very few museum specimens, yet i think that such a sculpture is shared by all bulgharmaadensis s.l.
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| Autore: | Acmaeodera [ 02/02/2011, 19:45 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Carabus (Procerus) sp. Turkey SE |
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| Autore: | gomphus [ 02/02/2011, 19:52 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Carabus (Procerus) sp. Turkey SE |
p.s. waiting for vinicio-eurinomio, i think that at least the species is not doubtful... |
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| Autore: | eurinomio [ 02/02/2011, 22:44 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Carabus (Procerus) sp. Turkey SE |
gomphus ha scritto: i think that at least the species is not doubtful... la bestia è quella e non ci sono dubbi di sorta, almeno per quello che mi risulta...anche la località sembra corretta. Cavazzuti quando propose la revisione dei Procerus nel 1989, inserì il bulgharmaadensis come ssp di transversalis. successivamente Deuve credo l'abbia messo come ssp del toulgoetianus, da lui descritto nel 2002. adesso Cavazzuti l'ha elevato al rango di specie, declassando il toulgoetianus a ssp di bulgharmaadensis, insieme alla ssp akbesiensis (prima ssp di transversalis). in buona sostanza il transversalis è stato sostituito a tutti gli effetti da toulgoetianus. adesso devo purtroppo scappare...approfondiremo il discorso domani; dovesse servire di sentire l'ultima "campana", non credo di avere problemi a telefonare all'amico Cavazzuti. ciao  p.s. in ogni caso è lui.  @ Acmaeodera complimentoni...è una bestia molto rara. 
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| Autore: | gomphus [ 02/02/2011, 23:27 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Carabus (Procerus) bulgharmaadensis E. Bodemeyer, 1915... ssp.??? - Carabidae - Turkey SE |
just a remark the widespread treatment of bulgharmaadensis as ssp. of transversalis is incorrect at all, since transversalis Csiki, 1927 has not the priority on bulgharmaadensis E. Bodemeyer, 1915; therefore bulgharmaadensis may not be a ssp. of transversalis this, irrespective of being transversalis a homonym and a definitely invalid name |
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| Autore: | Acmaeodera [ 03/02/2011, 8:44 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Carabus (Procerus) bulgharmaadensis E. Bodemeyer, 1915... ssp.??? - Carabidae - Turkey SE |
 CLEAR !!!! 
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| Autore: | Ivan [ 03/02/2011, 12:39 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Carabus (Procerus) bulgharmaadensis E. Bodemeyer, 1915... ssp.??? - Carabidae |
Hi, first of all my congratulation for your success with this very interesting Carabus! For sure it is C. (Procerus) bulgharmaadensis Bodemeyer, 1915, it is different from ssp. toulgoetianus Deuve, 2002 for some details (longer elytra, less large poronotum). If you need a picture of toulgoetianus I can send to compare. According Deuve bulgharmaadensis, toulgoetianus, akbesiensis belong to C. (P.) syriacus Kollar, 1843. Ivan |
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| Autore: | ivo [ 03/02/2011, 12:53 ] | ||
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Carabus (Procerus) bulgharmaadensis E. Bodemeyer, 1915... ssp.??? - Carabidae | ||
TURKEY - SE, Icel Prov.,NW of Tarsus,Sarikoyak env., Carabus (Procerus) bulgharmaadensis ssp.toulgoetianus 
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| Autore: | Acmaeodera [ 03/02/2011, 13:34 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Carabus (Procerus) bulgharmaadensis E. Bodemeyer, 1915... ssp.??? - Carabidae |
Ivan ha scritto: According Deuve bulgharmaadensis, toulgoetianus, akbesiensis belong to C. (P.) syriacus Kollar, 1843. Ivan
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| Autore: | gomphus [ 03/02/2011, 15:30 ] |
| Oggetto del messaggio: | Re: Carabus (Procerus) bulgharmaadensis E. Bodemeyer, 1915... ssp.??? - Carabidae |
Ivan ha scritto: According Deuve bulgharmaadensis, toulgoetianus, akbesiensis belong to C. (P.) syriacus Kollar, 1843. Ivan gomphus ha scritto: ... p.p.s. about your remark, some authors in the past considered "transversalis" as ssp. of syriacus, maybe a correct point of view ...
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