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Protaetia (Netocia) cuprea obscura (Andersch 1797) - Cetoniidae - Bulgaria
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Autore:  cosmln [ 04/08/2010, 18:36 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Protaetia (Netocia) cuprea obscura (Andersch 1797) - Cetoniidae - Bulgaria
Hi,

Found this big cetoniid (23-24 mm) on flowers of some twistle at the Black Sea shore in Bulgaria, 29.june.2009 (43.383977/28.470447), leg. Cosmin O. Manci.

For me this looks very strange, the knees are not white, the genitalia is like cuprea.
A similar specimen can be seen in a photo published in Marek Bunalski (1999) Die Blatthornkafer Mitteleuropas – Coleoptera Scarabaeoidea, noted as ssp. obscura (Andersch 1797). But there the white knees are visible.

If needed will do more photos, just let me know what.

Heeeelp and thanks,
cosmln
undet_IMG_0280_C00080.JPG
Autore:  claudio sola [ 04/08/2010, 22:55 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Protaetia (Netocia) cuprea (Fabricius 1775) ???, Cetoniidae - Bulgaria
Ciao Cosmin ,
per me è una potosia fieberi , non sono specialista , ma così a occhio mi sembra proprio una potosia fieberi :roll:
Autore:  cosmln [ 07/08/2010, 11:33 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Protaetia (Netocia) cuprea (Fabricius 1775) ???, Cetoniidae - Bulgaria
made another photo showing the genitalia (dorsal view) and also the knee.
from what I see the paramer are covering one to each other (>>>> P.cuprea in this part of the world), and there is not white on knee (>>>> P.fieberi).

pls, heeeeeeeeeeeelp

cosmln
undet_detIMG_0379_C00080.JPG
Autore:  Julodis [ 08/08/2010, 0:09 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Protaetia (Netocia) cuprea (Fabricius 1775) ???, Cetoniidae - Bulgaria
I think it could be Protaetia (Netocia) cuprea obscura (Andersch 1797)
Autore:  Glaphyrus [ 08/08/2010, 8:51 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Protaetia (Netocia) cuprea (Fabricius 1775) ???, Cetoniidae - Bulgaria
In that part of the world, with very similar paramera, also P. cuprina is expected to occurr, however also this species should be identified by white spot on knees.
I do agree with Maurizio: my guess is P. cuprea obscura
Autore:  cosmln [ 08/08/2010, 12:01 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Protaetia (Netocia) cuprea (Fabricius 1775) ???, Cetoniidae - Bulgaria
Glaphyrus ha scritto:
In that part of the world, with very similar paramera, also P. cuprina is expected to occurr, however also this species should be identified by white spot on knees.
I do agree with Maurizio: my guess is P. cuprea obscura


thanks to both of you, so the character white spot on knees is not perfect.

cosmln
Autore:  Glaphyrus [ 08/08/2010, 12:58 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Protaetia (Netocia) cuprea obscura (Andersch 1797) - Cetoniidae. Bulgaria
The white spot is common to cuprina and fieberi, but the two species can be easily recognised by the paramera shape
Autore:  cosmln [ 08/08/2010, 13:18 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Protaetia (Netocia) cuprea obscura (Andersch 1797) - Cetoniidae. Bulgaria
Glaphyrus ha scritto:
The white spot is common to cuprina and fieberi, but the two species can be easily recognised by the paramera shape


white spot? from what I read in keys (for ex. Baraud) for fieberi the white spot knee is missing, but on cuprina is nothing write about knee there. Also I don't think cuprina will be found on Bulgaria (from Baraud, 1992 about cuprina "Répartition: Arménie. Géorgie. la répanition se superpose à cel le de N. caucasica (Kol.).")

cosmln
Autore:  Glaphyrus [ 08/08/2010, 15:58 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Protaetia (Netocia) cuprea obscura (Andersch 1797) - Cetoniidae. Bulgaria
:cry:
What a confusion... my mistakes!

I wanted to say that the absence of white spotes on the knees is common to two species, fieberi and [i]cuprea [/i]. In P. cuprea some subspecies miss the the white knee, other usuallyhave it (see Baraud, first dichotomy in key to P. cuprea subspecies, p. 810). P. cuprea obscura should have that spot, but it may be absent, while it is not said that P. cuprina may miss it.
Actually, I would not bet on the fact that this character may not be variable in P. cuprina , however this is not told in Baraud, so my guess is P. cuprea.

Baraud's key lead to P. cuprina (couplet 20) taking option 2 "Knee with a white spot" on couple 18. Also, in couplet 20 the distribution of P. cuprina is said: "Caucase, Bulgarie, Turquie".
Presence in Eastern Europe is also confirmed in the Catalogue Paleactic.
Autore:  cosmln [ 08/08/2010, 16:31 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Protaetia (Netocia) cuprea obscura (Andersch 1797) - Cetoniidae. Bulgaria
Glaphyrus ha scritto:
...
Baraud's key lead to P. cuprina (couplet 20) taking option 2 "Knee with a white spot" on couple 18. Also, in couplet 20 the distribution of P. cuprina is said: "Caucase, Bulgarie, Turquie".
Presence in Eastern Europe is also confirmed in the Catalogue Paleactic.


now I see what you say... is interesting because if you go to see the species text there is very different, about distribution. :)
Thanks Marco for all your help... will come also with a melolonthid in an hour or so :)

cosmln
Autore:  AdYRuicanescu [ 11/08/2010, 14:59 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:  Re: Protaetia (Netocia) cuprea obscura (Andersch 1797) - Cetoniidae - Bulgaria
Protaetia (Potosia) fieberi (Kraatz, 1880) has the ventral part, legs and mesepimera cooper too, not violet. I have found a lot of P. cuprea cuprina and P. fieberi in the south-eastern Romania. The waxen white spot on the knees can be pure and simple erased for some reason to the old specimens. In the dorsal view they apparently were belonging to the same species. But the purple - violet shine of the ventral part is differentiating the cuprea. I saw violet legs and mesepimera, so it is Protaetia (Potosia) cuprea ssp. obscura (Andersch, 1797)
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