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Tropinota (Tropinota) squallida (Scopoli, 1783) - Cetoniidae http://www.entomologiitaliani.net/public/forum/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=164&t=89703	Pagina 1 di 2

Autore:	Baris99 [ 01/05/2020, 12:34 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Tropinota (Tropinota) squallida (Scopoli, 1783) - Cetoniidae
I have read from several sources that T. squalida differs from T. hirta mainly by the elevated 5. interstrial space. I have two specimens, both collected from the same locality one day apart. They both have elevated 5. interstrial space but one specimen has clearly tufted hairs on the frontline of white markings (characteristic feature of T. squalida?) and the other specimen does not have such tufted hairs (characteristic of T. hirta). All the images of the T. squalida in the Internet have the following combination: elevated 5. interstrial space + tufted hairs along the frontline of the white marking. All the images of the T. hirta in the Internet have following combination: not elevated 5. interstrial space + absence of tufted hairs along the frontline of the white marking. But one of my specimen (the one on the right) has elevated 5. interstrial space but it has no tufted hairs along the frontline of the white marking. So I couldn't be sure whether it is T. squalida or T. hirta. Tropinota squalida Tropinota squalida or hirta?

Autore:	gildoro [ 01/05/2020, 15:55 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Tropinota squalida squalida and T. hirta?
secondo il mio modesto parere si tratta di Tropinota squalida per la costolatura a Y sulle elitre e per la punteggiatura dello scutello che interessa solo la base Ciao

Autore:	gildoro [ 01/05/2020, 16:07 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Tropinota squalida squalida and T. hirta?
questa Tropinota hirta quasi priva di peli.vedi però lo scutello punteggiato lateralmente per tutta la lunghezza.spero di essere stato utile ciao

Autore:	Baris99 [ 01/05/2020, 17:07 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Tropinota squalida squalida and T. hirta?
Actually, the punctuation of scutellum of the second specimen (the one which I couldn't be sure of whether it is T. hirta or T. squalida) is similar to that of the specimen in the photo you shared. So it is T. hirta? Left one is T. squalida, right one is the one with elevated 5. interstrial space but without tuft of hairs along the frontline of the white markings

Autore:	gildoro [ 01/05/2020, 18:25 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Tropinota squalida squalida and T. hirta?
hai ragione effettivamente ingrandendo lo scutello si vede chiaramente la punteggiatura che interessa quasi tutto lo scutello nelle immagini precedenti non era chiaro a questo punto il secondo soggetto sembra proprio una hirta.Aspettiamo il parere di Piero Leo che è un grande esperto di queste specie ciao

Autore:	Baris99 [ 01/05/2020, 22:15 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Tropinota squalida squalida and T. hirta?
Thank you alot for the help. I am waiting for Piero Leo.

Autore:	Glaphyrus [ 02/05/2020, 9:43 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Tropinota squalida squalida and T. hirta?
Hi Baris, I'm not Piero Leo but while waiting for him, if you like to hear another opinion, first one is squallida (not squalida), second one is hirta . Based on tarsi, first specimen appears to be a male. If you turn it upside down, you will see concave/sulcated sternites, which is a feature present in subgenus Tropinota and absent in subgenus Epicometis, where hirta is placed.

Autore:	Baris99 [ 02/05/2020, 10:18 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Tropinota squalida squalida and T. hirta?
Thank you alot for your message Marco, it is very helpful and surprising! It is surprising because I had thought that squallida was a misspelling and didn't know that it was a separate species. I could not find the distinguishing features between T. squallida and T. squalida. And also, can T. hirta have elevated 5. interstrial space (as in my second specimen)? I will also photograph both of the specimens from below.

Autore:	Glaphyrus [ 02/05/2020, 10:47 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Tropinota squalida squalida and T. hirta?
Oops... you misunderstood my message. squallida is the correct spelling for squalida, they are the same but the name has been wrong spelled for long time. The correct spelling was recently resumed.

Autore:	Glaphyrus [ 02/05/2020, 12:02 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Tropinota squalida squalida and T. hirta?
I overlooked your question about interstria 5. In hirta it can be developed to some degree, but normally less, and less sharp than in squallida. Mostly, it is evident only in the distal half, while in squallida it is completely developed also in the basal one, and has a kind of "furcation" ("Y shaped" stria) with a branch going towards humerus and a second one, less evident, directed medially. This furcation is not observed in hirta. I have many turkish samples of hirta and a quick survey suggests that interstria 5 may be on average more developed than in european populations. Turkish populations are traditionally attributed to ssp. suturalis, for having the elytra suture more elevated. In my opininon the definition of this ssp. is rather unsatisfying, but it may be considered somehow in accordance with elevation of interstria 5. If you have some specimens with worn hair, you will also see that squallida has lateral margin of pronotum elevated, well defined, smooth, entire. hirta, on the othe hand, has this margin poorly defined, sometimes almost unperceivable (especially in distal part) due to being completely covered of hair-bearing punctures. Finally, squallida in Turkey is much less common than hirta, and often associated to warmer/coastal areas, while hirta can be found more or less "everywhere".

Autore:	Baris99 [ 02/05/2020, 12:18 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Tropinota squalida squalida and T. hirta?
Thank you alot for the detailed explanation. We have many topics with both T. squalida and T. squallida and with two different author citations, Scopoli, 1763 and Scopoli,1783 in the forum so I thought that they were two distinct species. Thank you alot for clarifying that. We have almost 50 photographs of Tropinota hirta from Turkey in http://dogalhayat.org/turler/tropinota-hirta/?cpage=1. Almost all of them have elevated 5. interstrial space, but as you mentioned, the elevation is more pronounced distally and almost absent basally and it does not bifurcate. Thank you alot for your help!

Autore:	Glaphyrus [ 02/05/2020, 12:27 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Tropinota squalida squalida and T. hirta?
I had a quick look, I think this is T. squallida http://dogalhayat.org/property/tropinot ... rettyPhoto In E Turkey you have also senicula and hirtiformis, that are similar to hirta , but different for pronotum deeply notched in front of scutellum and longer antennal clubs of male.

Autore:	Baris99 [ 02/05/2020, 14:38 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Tropinota squalida squalida and T. hirta?
Yes, that one was identified erroneously previously. Yesterday, I warned the persons who suggested that it was T. hirta, that it should be T. squallida because of obviously bifurcated 5. interstrial space. Thank you alot for your help.

Autore:	gildoro [ 02/05/2020, 19:31 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Tropinota squalida squalida and T. hirta?
Grazie Marco per la esauriente spiegazione che mi servirà a riguardare (in questi tempi di reclusione)tutti i soggetti classificati come hirta della mia collezione.Scusa se non ho pensato a te come esperto ma avevo parlato con Piero in giorno prima e abbiamo parlato proprio di Tropinota perciò sono partito in automatico..... scusa ancora e grazie visto che siamo in argomento la differenza fra le due specie c'è pure nell'edago nel Baraud la differenza è molto evidente è attendibile la cosa o è stata superata negli anni??

Autore:	Glaphyrus [ 02/05/2020, 19:55 ]
Oggetto del messaggio:	Re: Tropinota squalida squalida and T. hirta?
Gildo, ma vuoi scherzare... siamo fra amici (e ne approfitto per salutare Piero, quando passerà di qua). Non ho memoria di ambiguità riguardanti i parameri di questa coppia di specie, direi che sono affidabili le differenze illustrate in Baraud: hirta ha i parameri dilatari all'apice, squallida no. Purtroppo i parameri delle Tropinota sono poco caratterizzati e la differenza fra specie affini (hirta/iberica/iec/paulae) è sottile.

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